Your Discussion Point For The Afternoon

[coalescent]

"There's a Reason I'm not Dating a Nerd":

I later pondered and realized that what pissed me off was the notion that, because I’m female, I need to prove to men that I can join their exclusive club. And once that proof is established, I’m still not really allowed into their clubhouse. In the same way that so many nerds consider jocks to be practically another species, well, women are, too. We are Other. We’re confusing and mystifying. And it doesn’t matter if we like the same things, if we read the same things, if we discuss the same things. ‘Female’ is ‘Other’. But a female who is into those same things is put into yet another classification – as both female and nerd (especially if you’re attractive) you’re now a fetish. You’re someone who can share the joy of videogames and comics and science fiction, so he doesn’t have to alter his interests to impress you – and on top of that, you might have sex with him. You’re not just a girl, you’re a dream girl.

I used to be pretty pleased with that. I grew up awkward (as many nerds do) and when I first met a group of male nerds who treated me as Queen Nerd, it was a heady, thrilling feeling. But as I grew more comfortable and confident with myself, it started to feel creepier. I don’t like being someone’s concept, I like being a person. And Nerd Girl is not the same as Person.

Comments

[rparvaaz.livejournal.com]

First, it is a geeralisation.
Second, it is somewhat overstated.
THird, it is a bit confused [or at least the bit you've quoted is].

Having said that there seems to be truth in what she says about objectification, and manifestations thereof, in 'nerd' circles. And I don't see it as a big deal either. *shrug*

Every group has those who are not terribly good at empathy and commuication.

[kelyantar.livejournal.com]

Quite honestly, I selfishly enjoy that dynamic because it works to my advantage...but I'm not dating a "nerd" either (though he has nerd sympathies).

[coalescent.livejournal.com]

Ah: a geek liaison? (One of my favourite internet quiz results, I have to admit.)

[despotliz.livejournal.com]

Some nerds have no social skills, film at 11. Man meets attractive woman who shares his interests and is excited by this, also film at 11.

[ex-susumu64.livejournal.com]

Oh man, the sarcasm channel needs multi-start.

[dsky.livejournal.com]

*applauds*

[nicedaisy.livejournal.com]

It's not quite that.

[wg.livejournal.com]

Surely "There's a reason I'm not dating an idiot without social skills". Oh dear.

[coalescent.livejournal.com]

Somewhere in the back of my brain there's a niggle about the way that true nerds tend to apply pragmatism to relationships, and how that does or doesn't interact with the Nerd Girl/Person problem (since, as rparvaaz says, I think there's at least some truth to the generalisation). But it won't resolve into an actual thought.

[grahamsleight.livejournal.com]

Trying to translate this into the world of Queer Nerds, if there is such a thing, makes my brain hurt.

[fba.livejournal.com]

I have heard IT as a profession described as '21st century hair dressing' on a number of occassions so Queer Nerds certainly exist (Vince Tyler in QaF is just as much an archetype as Stuart). I'm not sure it has much effect on 'dating' though...

[lil-shepherd.livejournal.com]

But surely having being a baseball nerd (which her boyfriend is)is just as good/bad? I know that a pretty girl who likes football and knows a bit about it will be quizzed for her credentials - but then so would a man!

[coffeeandink.livejournal.com]

Once I realized which post the quote above was responding to, I had a little more sympathy for it; but it's still fighting dehumanizing generalizations with dehumanizing generalizations, and I'll pass.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I've pretty much always dated, dallied with, and been attracted to, female geeks of one variety or another. But its not because I fetishise them, its because thats who my friends are, and thats who I tend to spend leisure time with etc.
Never quite understood what so wrong with finding a partner from among those you already know and like, myself.

[grahamsleight.livejournal.com]

Yes. The quotation could be rephrased as: "There's a thoughtful way to do things and an unthoughtful way to do things. The thoughtful way is better." As Liz says, Film at 11.

[fjm.livejournal.com]

Ach, she's not being objectified as a Queen Nerd, she's just been caught up in Male Conversation (I use the capitals to indicate type, not actual gender assignment).

Female Conversation goes, Stroke, Reassurance, Admire, Undercut until a central person is established. It's mostly emotional grooming/

Male Conversation goes, Exchange of Information, More Information, The One with the Most Information/shiniest toy wins and then they all get on with sharing a drink.

Nerds tend to MC, so do Baseball fans. but the Nerds are assuming she understands the rules and so are shuffling the status pack, whereas her boyfriend doesn't think she's worth playing with.

I don't necessarily think she's wrong not wanting to play status games in a relationship, but I think her diagnosis--that they were trying to catch her out--is wrong.

[tacithydra.livejournal.com]

re: Male Conversation

I agree with you in general, but reading her entire post, the geek boy reaction at the bookstore seems a little strong even for that - "Name three robins!" I mean, really?

Yeah, when you first meet someone who claims ingroup status there's some testing, but even amongst geek/nerd clans I've always found it to be a little more subtle than that.

Although taking just that one guy as a sample of all geekdom is painting with a broad brush, I'll admit.

But there's a dynamic difference between people peacocking when they first meet ("Look at my shininess!") and one of them declaring themselves arbiters of ingroupness.

[wychwood]

I don't think that's quite fair, though - the sort of conversation she's talking about isn't "Exchange of Information", it's more like "Establish Status". There's a difference between, say, comparing classes of Star Trek ships and proving that you can list the serial numbers of the various Enterprises in timeline chronological order - she was being challenged, not conversed with. If they'd asked her which Robin she liked best, that would be one thing, but just demanding that she list Robins? That's not conversation by any standard I've ever encountered.

While of course there are many male geeks / nerds / whatever who are perfectly capable of treating women as real people, I have encountered situations like those she mentioned. I don't want a pat on the head for being a clever girlie who can understand Man Things like computers, or challenged to prove my credentials as a science fiction reader; I just want to talk about how free Ubuntu ought to be, or Geoff Ryman's use of his Mundane manifesto in books like Air. Yes, nerds are notoriously poor with social skills, but that doesn't mean we should just let them get away with it when the rest of us have learnt to deal.

[applez.livejournal.com]

I don’t like being someone’s concept, I like being a person. And Nerd Girl is not the same as Person.

Erm...and this differs how from any host of identities people try on and keep, or are forced to keep?

Really, Nerd Girl is as reductionist and dehumanising as Jock or Beauty Queen.

[veggiesu.livejournal.com]

See, when I told you that this happens in fandom (and she's using "nerds" where I was using "fandom") you told me it doesn't happen in *your* fandom :-p To which I correctly responded that it happens in *all* groups - there's a reason that psychologists study group dynamics and have terms like "In-Group" and "Out-Group".

I think the ever-so-slightly defensive position taken by most respondents so far is kind of right - she's actually identified a trait that annoys her, and doesn't date guys like that. It's simply that she's found it among Nerds, and given an example of that. That doesn't mean it doesn't hapen in SF fandom/Nerds/whatever; it just means it's perhaps more universal than she implied. Although, TBH, I don't think she implied that it *isn't* universal, either - she simply gave an example of the aggressive prove-yourself bullshit as she encountered it.

I've found it among oh-so-many groups, so I see it as a Group issues, rather than a Geek/Fandom/Nerd issue. For example, the following conversation is representative of many that I've faced over the years:
Some Random Guy: You're a football fan?
Me: Well, Iwouldn't say "fan", but I take an interest, yes.
SRG: Name the winning goal-scorer in the 1973 FA Cup final.
Me: ...

But all self-identifying groups are like that - they define themselves as much by who they aren't, and by who isn't one of them, as by anything else. So if someone Out-Group also self-idenifies, it creates a tension between that person's self-perception, and the self-perception of the group. One way to resolve that is to challenge that person to prove that they belong; as ridiculous as it seems. it happens all the time, with all sorts of groups. Perhaps expecting a group of people who aren't especially known for their social skills to be any different is a bit harsh :-p

(Also, she relates it *very* definitely to being female, and I think she's probably right - it's such an easy way to mark out people who are Other or Out-Group in a predominately single-gender group that it's barely a surprise. See also: football, as I mentioned).

[snowking.livejournal.com]

It's clearly not happening in Niall's fandom! There's no way he could name three Robins.

[communicator.livejournal.com]

I agree that the 'Name 3 Robins' thing was crass and unfriendly.

I also think there's a dynamic where some men make a lot of noise 'Oh, boo hoo, women would be much better if they were x' (less house proud, less interested in shopping, more keen on football, more knowledgeable about Star Wars, more sexually promiscuous) but actually they like it, and surround themselves by women like that. Hence the hostility if someone violates the system.

[oursin.livejournal.com]

Have I missed anyone else citing the bit in Diner where one of the blokes is trying to get his fiancee up to speed on ?baseball (or sports generally?) by making her answer quizzes on the subject, so that they will have 'something to talk about' once married.

[twic.myopenid.com (from livejournal.com)]

lol humans

-- tom

[mokatiki.livejournal.com]

This girl needs to watch Coupling.

Personally i think i've mostly been 'Mummy Geek' or 'That crazy one running around over there, covered in glitter'. And to my knowledge nobody have ever used me in sex toy reference...except for those 2 times.

Wow, you have your own fandom! so whens the next NiallCon?

(Is it bad that with the 'Name 3 Robins' incident i thought, 'oh, well thats obvious!')

[neonchameleon.livejournal.com]

(Is it worse that my immediate response in context would have been "Bruce Wayne (Sins of Youth), The Toy Wonder (DC 1 million) and Stephanie Brown"?)

[seajules]

Huh. I have to say, I know whereof she speaks, though I agree the behavior she encountered isn't exclusive to nerds. It is an "ingroup/outgroup" thing. However, since her ingroup is a particular subset of nerd/geek/fan, of course she's going to draw her examples from that subset.

I can't tell from the article if she thinks her boyfriend is different because his interests are different, rather than because he's a more socially skilled person. It's a shame if it's the first. There are certainly baseball nerds who would challenge her as belligerently as the comics nerd did in a similar situation.

[las.livejournal.com]

On a separate note, have I offended?