Coalescent

Should the first question not have offered the options "GOOD! / BAD! / EQUIPOISE!" ??

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bugshaw.livejournal.com

Some other interpretation I will explain in a comment

It was a fantasy film, not a documentary! Why do you hold it to the same standards as real life?

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storme

The first question needs the option 'gleefully graphic enough that my stomach flipped over and I had to go out and get air'. I missed some of the ending and had to have it described to me afterwards, in fact.

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I didn't need to know, or really think about whether the fantasy world was real or not. It didn't seem to be important to the film.

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In a similar vein - do people wonder whether Labyrinth was all in Jennifer Connelly's imagination? It just doesn't seem like something worth puzzling over to me - the story happened in some sense, and it doesn't add anything to my experience to try and work out if the whole thing is the imagination of a psychotic child.

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I think it changes the meaning and effectiveness of the ending quite dramatically.

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Er ... what?

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I think the high point in that regard was the Captain stitching his own cheek closed. And then having a glass of whiskey.

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No. HTH, HAND.

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YA Niall Harrison AICM5P.

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Good Lord, Holmes, how do you do it?

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I don't know, but if I get to do this every time you're snarky, it could wind up as a decent income source.

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storme

Yes, the stitching was when I decided I couldn't cope any more and had to get out even though it meant crawling out on my hands and knees past the people at the end of our row. I'm not even usually that much of a wuss about violence in films. *shudder*

Also, I see we are almost all mean and want her to have strived against fantasy creatures for no reward. Hooray.

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Having mentioned the stitching, I have to say that the scene that's staying with me most after the fact is the scene where the Doctor is shot. Which isn't gory at all.

Also, I see we are almost all mean and want her to have strived against fantasy creatures for no reward. Hooray.

Well, it's the right interpretation -- if she got to the Underworld after all, I think it makes the film significantly less powerful. My reservation about the film is that my first reaction was that her vision had, in fact, been real, but I was talked aroudn afterwards.

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despotliz.livejournal.com

YA ODC AICM5P.

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Apparently

talvalin is a big softy.

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Look over there!

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But I don't think there's any actual evidence one way or the other. It's not important to the film itself - because if it was, the information would be there for us to find. The film totally fails to dwell on the possibility, so it's not something I spent time thinking about.

I mean, you could argue that Mercedes is sleeping with Pedro, and that this effects the various relationships in the film - but there's nothing in the film to argue either pro or anti this, so it doesn't seem worth the argument time.

Deckard, on the other hand, clearly a replicant.

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That's way too early. It reeks of Wrongness. You didn't buy any, I trust?

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It's not important to the film itself - because if it was, the information would be there for us to find.

My problem is, I'm half-inclined to feel that the ambiguity in the ending is there by accident, not by intent. Your example doesn't track, because for the question of whether the fantastic elements are "real", there are pieces of evidence in the film one way and the other -- the sudden illness of Ofelia's mother at the death of the mandrake, for instance, vs the shot of Ofelia talking to nothing in the final scene; there are others. I suspect this largely because if Ofelia's vision is real, the film loses a lot of its power, and I think del Toro is smart enough to realise that.

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If it makes you feel happy to believe that, sure.

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storme

Hmm.

See, as mentioned, I missed part of the ending - left during the stitching and creeping about, came back in time to see Ofelia's body dripping blood - but from what I gathered she refused to do what was asked of her.

My problem is that it was very loudly telegraphed earlier on that she shouldn't just blindly obey the orders she'd been given, and so I can believe that she would be rewarded in a fluffy gold-tinted manner. And so, though I'd prefer the final vision to be imagined, I can believe that it was intended to be real.

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talvalin.livejournal.com

Damn right.

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Why would the reality of her vision cause the film to lose a lot of its power?

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Because in the circumstances in which it happens in the film, it's a cheat. It's consolatory. It's fantasy as avoidance of the real world.

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In which case, I disagree entirely. The circumstances happen _because_ of her choices. She chooses to say what she says to the faun, which then (in the real world) causes the event which he says is necessary.

It's not consoling - it's the perfect meshing of the world of fairy-tale with the world of reality, where they only interact through the girl who lives in both.

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despotliz.livejournal.com

I'm hungry now :(

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Not only that - but picking and choosing which bits were real seems completely arbitrary to me. If you're going to assume that part X was imaginary, what possible justification is there for assuming that any of what happens was real?

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What that ending says is it's ok, Ofelia made the right choice, she gets to live, if not happily ever after, then happily for centuries. Given the context of the rest of the film, that's downright insulting.

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bugshaw.livejournal.com

Sorry - posting in haste at work. I meant to convey something more like

andrewducker does below (http://coalescent.livejournal.com/367719.html?thread=7660135#t7660135), questioning the baseline level of reality to which you hold the rest of the film (the "realistic" elements where Ofelia interacts with other humans instead of fantastic creatures).

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I'm not insulted.

I'm curious as to why you are.

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I'm not insulted.

I'm not insulted, because I'm choosing to believe that the final vision is intended to be fake. But if the vision is intended to be true, then it's what I said: a use of fantasy to lie, and to efface the full pain of a painful situation. It diminishes the rest of the film because it means Ofelia's death doesn't matter -- in fact, it means that it's a good thing.

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