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coalescent) wrote2007-08-29 10:18 am
coalescent) wrote2007-08-29 10:18 am
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When is there going to be another one?
See, no, that doesn't work. Every product has an intended market. Gotta identify the reader. What that cover looks like, to me, is they are targeting the Old Skool Manly Fiction of Ideas and Rocketships, with a little existential angst on the side. Now, this interpretation is not actually supported by the list of constributors, many of whom do not fall into that category so much. I see a disconnect between the editorial decision-making and the marketing department.
...not that that's ever happened before. *g*
...not that that's ever happened before. *g*
So you pick whatever names think will get you the largest defineable audience and the best chance of crossover appeal. You're not trying to appeal to everybody, you're trying to appeal to as many people as you can. :-p
That works--but that's a definable audience, is what I'm saying. The audience defined by that list of five names is different than it would be if you mixed it up a bit.
I find it hard to believe the marketing department didn't think of that--in fact, I'm quite sure they did.
I find it hard to believe the marketing department didn't think of that--in fact, I'm quite sure they did.
We appear to be vigorously agreeing with one another. The question, if you like, is whether the five names they chose will get them the biggest possible defineable audience, compared to another five names they could have chosen.
Two cents from the person who got decided who got put on the cover and who didn't.
Five names is what we decided would reasonably fit on the cover. Who to pick...? As the publisher, I have one job and only one job. Make this book sell as many copies as possible. If we want to have an Eclipse Two, then the first one has to turn a profit. That's the business.
So I'm going to pick the five names that I think will best sell the book, and frankly, gender isn't important in that decision to me, unless I think the author's gender will help me sell copies of the book. So why did I pick the five names that I picked?
Garth Nix - sells books by the metric ton, and while YA, has been around long enough to have a lot of crossover fans
Bruce Sterling - sells lots and lots of books
Peter Beagle - sells lots and lots of books, and oh yeah, that whole Last Unicorn thing
Jeffrey Ford - multiple-award winning short story writer, his last two collections were both starred reviews, and his last novel won and Edgar and sold a ton of copies
Lucius Shepard - rabid fan following, and I publish his novels and he sells a lot of books for us, which makes be believe he will sell copies of this book
Why are some of the other authors not on the cover? I'll not name names, but some of them are not on the cover because they are not well-known outside of YA. Some of them are not on the cover because they don't sell particularly well, no matter how well they are reviewed. Some of them are not on the cover because we decided to put five names on the cover and not six.
I have read posts here that say "so-and-so is a way bigger author than so-and-so that you put on the cover, so you must be sexist" and you're going to have to trust me on this: you're probably wrong. I have access to sales data, you probably don't. I do this for a living, I own the company, and I don't have a foreign conglomerate backing us, so when I'm wrong it costs me a lot of money. If I thought putting five women on the cover would sell more copies, I'd have done it.
Bottom line, I don't have enough money in the bank to worry about agendas. I'm going to put names on the cover that I think will move the most copies of the book. Readers are pretty predictable. Put names on the cover that they recognize, they will be more likely to pick up the book. Put names on the cover that they don't recognize, and they will be less likely to pick up the book. This is fact, not speculation. If you think I'm completely wrong, toss down your $20,000 and show me the right way to do it.
Jason Williams
Night Shade Books
Five names is what we decided would reasonably fit on the cover. Who to pick...? As the publisher, I have one job and only one job. Make this book sell as many copies as possible. If we want to have an Eclipse Two, then the first one has to turn a profit. That's the business.
So I'm going to pick the five names that I think will best sell the book, and frankly, gender isn't important in that decision to me, unless I think the author's gender will help me sell copies of the book. So why did I pick the five names that I picked?
Garth Nix - sells books by the metric ton, and while YA, has been around long enough to have a lot of crossover fans
Bruce Sterling - sells lots and lots of books
Peter Beagle - sells lots and lots of books, and oh yeah, that whole Last Unicorn thing
Jeffrey Ford - multiple-award winning short story writer, his last two collections were both starred reviews, and his last novel won and Edgar and sold a ton of copies
Lucius Shepard - rabid fan following, and I publish his novels and he sells a lot of books for us, which makes be believe he will sell copies of this book
Why are some of the other authors not on the cover? I'll not name names, but some of them are not on the cover because they are not well-known outside of YA. Some of them are not on the cover because they don't sell particularly well, no matter how well they are reviewed. Some of them are not on the cover because we decided to put five names on the cover and not six.
I have read posts here that say "so-and-so is a way bigger author than so-and-so that you put on the cover, so you must be sexist" and you're going to have to trust me on this: you're probably wrong. I have access to sales data, you probably don't. I do this for a living, I own the company, and I don't have a foreign conglomerate backing us, so when I'm wrong it costs me a lot of money. If I thought putting five women on the cover would sell more copies, I'd have done it.
Bottom line, I don't have enough money in the bank to worry about agendas. I'm going to put names on the cover that I think will move the most copies of the book. Readers are pretty predictable. Put names on the cover that they recognize, they will be more likely to pick up the book. Put names on the cover that they don't recognize, and they will be less likely to pick up the book. This is fact, not speculation. If you think I'm completely wrong, toss down your $20,000 and show me the right way to do it.
Jason Williams
Night Shade Books
Or, the artist dropped out at the last minute, and Michael Whelan was kind enough to save our asses as the last minute. Which is pretty much what happened.
Jason
Jason
And yes, by the way, all the names are on the back. Because we're not completely stupid.
Jason
Jason
See this comment?
and to be even more blunt, I'm often inclined not to buy anthologies that don't have at least one female author's name on the cover, even if the contents are 50/50 or slanted toward more female contributors. I don't care what a market's excuse is, the end result pisses me off regardless.
Right. If you can't even remember to include a token women on the cover? Then you've managed to piss me off before I've even taken the book off the shelf to look at the back cover.
It's up to you to decide if there are enough of me out there that humoring me instead actively angering me will offset the loss of all those [insert name of male author] fans, of course.
ps. saying "whoops, we screwed up"? Would go over a lot better than angry defensiveness.
and to be even more blunt, I'm often inclined not to buy anthologies that don't have at least one female author's name on the cover, even if the contents are 50/50 or slanted toward more female contributors. I don't care what a market's excuse is, the end result pisses me off regardless.
Right. If you can't even remember to include a token women on the cover? Then you've managed to piss me off before I've even taken the book off the shelf to look at the back cover.
It's up to you to decide if there are enough of me out there that humoring me instead actively angering me will offset the loss of all those [insert name of male author] fans, of course.
ps. saying "whoops, we screwed up"? Would go over a lot better than angry defensiveness.
But why should a woman be a token? Surely the authors involved would rather be on the cover because of their own merits rather than 'shit, we need to put a bird on the cover to get women readers'?
I have read posts here that say "so-and-so is a way bigger author than so-and-so that you put on the cover, so you must be sexist"
I think most of the respondents here have been pretty understanding of the marketing decision that led to the selection of the five names - the point was made several times before you commented. Even those commenters who are critical of the decision not to list any women on the front cover don't ascribe it to sexism (although some of them have made the argument that you're ascribing sexism to your readers).
I think most of the respondents here have been pretty understanding of the marketing decision that led to the selection of the five names - the point was made several times before you commented. Even those commenters who are critical of the decision not to list any women on the front cover don't ascribe it to sexism (although some of them have made the argument that you're ascribing sexism to your readers).
And of course, the five you've chosen also were five of the top six scorers in the poll (the sixth was Gwyneth Jones) so it's not like the readers of this thread disagree with your choice of who will sell books per se. But it is pretty depressing that the inclusion of women's names wouldn't help market the book (I suspect there is exactly one female writer in the world whose name you'd have put on that cover if you had a story by her), no matter how strong the stories are likely to be. It's even pretty depressing that when considering marketing an anthology, it doesn't occur to publishers that having a diverse lineup of authors might help. Possibly because it *wouldn't* help.
It does look like a really strong and interesting anthology!
It does look like a really strong and interesting anthology!
which author, as I can think of a load of really high selling and well received female authours who would be good cover names.
Just not that many on the list to begin with
J
Just not that many on the list to begin with
J
I suspect there is exactly one female writer in the world whose name you'd have put on that cover if you had a story by her
Out of interest -- who? I can imagine Connie Willis and Ursula Le Guin making the cover. I'd be surprised if Kelly Link didn't, if she had a story in the book. For instance.
Out of interest -- who? I can imagine Connie Willis and Ursula Le Guin making the cover. I'd be surprised if Kelly Link didn't, if she had a story in the book. For instance.
My guess is that Lois McMaster Bujold would also shift a few.
Yeah, I imagine she would. But according to ISFDB she's written a grand total of seven short stories in the past 21 years, so it seemed a bit like cheating to use her as an example. :)
Again, not really a noted short fiction author, I feel ...
Right. If you can't even remember to include a token women on the cover? Then you've managed to piss me off before I've even taken the book off the shelf to look at the back cover.
First, I didn't "forget" to put a woman on the cover. I didn't think about it one way or the other. I looked at the list of names, and decided which five would most likely aid in getting people to pick up the book and look at it. In this particular lineup, it worked out how it worked out. Had the lineup been different, it probably would have worked out differently. Are there women who I would put on the cover? In a second. Would some of the women from this book made the cover, if the TOC had worked out a little differently? Sure. But it didn't.
As for pissing you off... well, you can't please all the people all the time.
It's up to you to decide if there are enough of me out there that humoring me instead actively angering me will offset the loss of all those [insert name of male author] fans, of course.
I believe I've already made that decision, haven't I?
ps. saying "whoops, we screwed up"? Would go over a lot better than angry defensiveness.
If I thought I'd screwed up, you'd know, because I would have said so and fixed it.
What I've seen here is a handful of angry voices screaming over injustices of the world. Ok, fine. However, I have a business to run. It's not my job to change the marketplace. I've thrown away more money than I can count by ignoring the marketplace, and it doesn't pay off. And a handful of people on a website or an LJ does not constitute a good reason to ignore solid and proven business practices. If you don't like the fact that anthologies sell best when they have big names in them, and they sell better when the big names are on the front, then do something about it. But those fingers need to be pointed at the members of the marketplace, not at me.
First, I didn't "forget" to put a woman on the cover. I didn't think about it one way or the other. I looked at the list of names, and decided which five would most likely aid in getting people to pick up the book and look at it. In this particular lineup, it worked out how it worked out. Had the lineup been different, it probably would have worked out differently. Are there women who I would put on the cover? In a second. Would some of the women from this book made the cover, if the TOC had worked out a little differently? Sure. But it didn't.
As for pissing you off... well, you can't please all the people all the time.
It's up to you to decide if there are enough of me out there that humoring me instead actively angering me will offset the loss of all those [insert name of male author] fans, of course.
I believe I've already made that decision, haven't I?
ps. saying "whoops, we screwed up"? Would go over a lot better than angry defensiveness.
If I thought I'd screwed up, you'd know, because I would have said so and fixed it.
What I've seen here is a handful of angry voices screaming over injustices of the world. Ok, fine. However, I have a business to run. It's not my job to change the marketplace. I've thrown away more money than I can count by ignoring the marketplace, and it doesn't pay off. And a handful of people on a website or an LJ does not constitute a good reason to ignore solid and proven business practices. If you don't like the fact that anthologies sell best when they have big names in them, and they sell better when the big names are on the front, then do something about it. But those fingers need to be pointed at the members of the marketplace, not at me.
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