As for what parma_violets says, well, frankly I couldn't give a good goddamn if the show doesn't take sci-fi concepts seriously;
Read his post again -- neither does he, and neither do I. What matters is that the show takes the concepts it uses seriously on its own terms. And "The Runaway Bride" didn't.
Read his post again -- neither does he, and neither do I
OK, two things; first up, as far as I can see, he does. I could be wrong, of course - I have a history of Reading It Wrong. But it certainly reads as if this is a problem for him. And secondly, if you don't think so, why bother quoting that part of the post?
What matters is that the show takes the concepts it uses seriously on its own terms. And "The Runaway Bride" didn't
I have no idea what you're saying here; it doesn't seem to relate to anything you've said in this thread. So there's things in the show that aren't plausible science; so what? How is that the show "not taking seriously the concepts it uses on it's own terms"? I would have thought that's exactly what it's doing.
We're meaning different things by the same words, it seems. Let me try again.
Who needs to take the concepts it introduces seriously to the extent that (a) they make sense within the established continuity of the show and (b) the consequences that flow from them make sense. In addition, it would be nice if they did not violate known physical principles to the extent that the audience is expecting any character with GCSE science to be doing a double-take.
The Hole and the way it is handled is a problem because it violates (b). If the Hole goes to the centre of the Earth, there should be a big explosion when you start opening it at the bottom. If there isn't an explosion due to Magic Alien Tech, you have used up your Magic Alien Tech card for that plotline, because if the Magic Alien Tech can be rolled out to solve any plot problem, I get bored. Further, if you have a Hole to the centre of the Earth, you have to factor the length of the Hole into subsequent plot development -- you can't pretend it's not 6,000km long. (Which they do, because 1. anything at the other end of a 6,000km hole is not an imminent threat, and 2. emptying the Thames into something that size isn't going to make a noticeable difference to anything.) But the Hole isn't the only element of the episode that's handled in this way -- there's the Huon particles, and oh, pretty much every emotional arc in the piece, except for possibly the Doctor's. Everything happens because the plot requires it to, not because it develops logically from previous events.
I also object to the Hole on aesthetic grounds, because it just makes me feel like RTD is being lazy.
1. anything at the other end of a 6,000km hole is not an imminent threat
We don't really have enough information about the aliens to make this assessment, I would argue. Maybe they're all on hoverbikes. ;-) Or can teleport up the tube like their queen once awake, unless drowned first. I appreciate that proper SF would have bothered to explain how this was going to work, but in a James Bond underground-base-style denouement it's enough that we know the aliens are going to pose a threat once they get out, and that whenever they arrive it'll be really really bad.
2. emptying the Thames into something that size isn't going to make a noticeable difference to anything
It won't fill the hole. It could certainly fill the spaceship at the bottom of it, which I assumed was the point.
there's the Huon particles,
The Huon particles are, I agree, arbitrary and problematic. They bother me a bit more than the stonking big hole.
and oh, pretty much every emotional arc in the piece
emptying the Thames into something that size isn't going to make a noticeable difference to anything
Gentlemen, here are the facts.
Radius of the earth at latitude 51.5 degrees: 6365.080 km (according to my calculations, based on figures and a formula from Wikipedia) Radius of the hole: 2.5 m (from what i remember) Area of the Thames within London: 2050 ha (Tidal Thames habitat audit) Depth of the Thames at the Barrier at lowest astronomical tide, which we will take as a fairly arbitrary guess at the average depth of the whole Thames within London: 6.1 m (Imray chart C2, based on Admiralty soundings)
So, how much of the hole can the Thames's water fill? I hope it's not too much to interrupt your critical flow to ask for a little bit of GCSE-level mathematics ...
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coalescent) wrote2006-12-25 08:16 pm
no subject
Read his post again -- neither does he, and neither do I. What matters is that the show takes the concepts it uses seriously on its own terms. And "The Runaway Bride" didn't.
no subject
OK, two things; first up, as far as I can see, he does. I could be wrong, of course - I have a history of Reading It Wrong. But it certainly reads as if this is a problem for him. And secondly, if you don't think so, why bother quoting that part of the post?
What matters is that the show takes the concepts it uses seriously on its own terms. And "The Runaway Bride" didn't
I have no idea what you're saying here; it doesn't seem to relate to anything you've said in this thread. So there's things in the show that aren't plausible science; so what? How is that the show "not taking seriously the concepts it uses on it's own terms"? I would have thought that's exactly what it's doing.
no subject
Who needs to take the concepts it introduces seriously to the extent that (a) they make sense within the established continuity of the show and (b) the consequences that flow from them make sense. In addition, it would be nice if they did not violate known physical principles to the extent that the audience is expecting any character with GCSE science to be doing a double-take.
The Hole and the way it is handled is a problem because it violates (b). If the Hole goes to the centre of the Earth, there should be a big explosion when you start opening it at the bottom. If there isn't an explosion due to Magic Alien Tech, you have used up your Magic Alien Tech card for that plotline, because if the Magic Alien Tech can be rolled out to solve any plot problem, I get bored. Further, if you have a Hole to the centre of the Earth, you have to factor the length of the Hole into subsequent plot development -- you can't pretend it's not 6,000km long. (Which they do, because 1. anything at the other end of a 6,000km hole is not an imminent threat, and 2. emptying the Thames into something that size isn't going to make a noticeable difference to anything.) But the Hole isn't the only element of the episode that's handled in this way -- there's the Huon particles, and oh, pretty much every emotional arc in the piece, except for possibly the Doctor's. Everything happens because the plot requires it to, not because it develops logically from previous events.
I also object to the Hole on aesthetic grounds, because it just makes me feel like RTD is being lazy.
no subject
We don't really have enough information about the aliens to make this assessment, I would argue. Maybe they're all on hoverbikes. ;-) Or can teleport up the tube like their queen once awake, unless drowned first. I appreciate that proper SF would have bothered to explain how this was going to work, but in a James Bond underground-base-style denouement it's enough that we know the aliens are going to pose a threat once they get out, and that whenever they arrive it'll be really really bad.
2. emptying the Thames into something that size isn't going to make a noticeable difference to anything
It won't fill the hole. It could certainly fill the spaceship at the bottom of it, which I assumed was the point.
there's the Huon particles,
The Huon particles are, I agree, arbitrary and problematic. They bother me a bit more than the stonking big hole.
and oh, pretty much every emotional arc in the piece
Que?
no subject
Gentlemen, here are the facts.
Radius of the earth at latitude 51.5 degrees: 6365.080 km (according to my calculations, based on figures and a formula from Wikipedia)
Radius of the hole: 2.5 m (from what i remember)
Area of the Thames within London: 2050 ha (Tidal Thames habitat audit)
Depth of the Thames at the Barrier at lowest astronomical tide, which we will take as a fairly arbitrary guess at the average depth of the whole Thames within London: 6.1 m (Imray chart C2, based on Admiralty soundings)
So, how much of the hole can the Thames's water fill? I hope it's not too much to interrupt your critical flow to ask for a little bit of GCSE-level mathematics ...
-- tom