coalescent: (Default)
[personal profile] coalescent
Ted Chiang responds to this post by Sarah Monette and suggests a way of looking at the differences between sf and fantasy:
I submit that what distinguishes magic from science--even imaginary science--is the role of consciousness. Magic has a subjective component--the intention, desire, or willpower of the practitioner--that is explicitly excluded from scientific experimentation.

[...]

This perspective helps illustrate why, even though fantasy doesn't have to be pre-industrial, fantasy works so well with a pre-industrial setting. Before industrialization, it was easier to believe that we lived in a universe that recognized persons. And even though fantasy doesn't have to be nostalgic, it's easy to romanticize the days when an individual's labor mattered, and you couldn't be replaced by a machine.

Similarly, this perspective illustrates why, even though science fiction doesn't have to be about technological advancement, it is so often concerned with the notion of progress. Once conscious intention was removed from the creation of devices, inventions could spread so rapidly that you could see society change within a single lifetime. And even though SF doesn't have to be cautionary, it's easy to worry about the dehumanization that can result when conscious intention is removed from too many aspects of life.
EDIT: Jeff Vandermeer (and Evil Monkey) respond here.

EDIT: And [livejournal.com profile] truepenny completes the circle here by arguing that definitions are useful after all.

Date: 2005-12-01 11:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coalescent.livejournal.com
I hadn't thought about the difference in terms of consciousness before, or at least not as clearly as he lays it out in that post.

Date: 2005-12-01 01:14 pm (UTC)
andrewducker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] andrewducker
It also ties in nicely to The Well Tempered Plot Device, and the discussion therein relating The Force to The Plot. Magic treats the world like a story, where things happen that affect the story we all pass through. The effects of magic are frequently described in the ways they change the plot of the characters, unless you're talking about hermetic magic, in which case the magic is verging on the scientific/alchemical anyway.

Date: 2005-12-01 01:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] coalescent.livejournal.com
But hang on, almost all fiction treats the world like a story; it just about has to. Real life doesn't generally have neat narrative arcs. Perhaps the difference between fantasy and sf is whether we can affect our own story or the world's story. Magic allows you control of your own life, allows you to escape social and economic forces that might otherwise constrain your choices.

I haven't thought this through, so it may well be nonsense.

Date: 2005-12-01 02:02 pm (UTC)
andrewducker: (Default)
From: [personal profile] andrewducker
You get scientific devices that raise the temperature, move continents, alter emotions, etc. All of these have a defined effect on an object.

Magical effects tend to effect things on a more meta level - "You will be a frog until kissed by a princess" - try feeding a Princess Recognition System into a computer and see how much fun you have - but magic knows, because it's sentient.

There is magic that isomorphous to technical effects - fireballs match up with flamethrowers, etc - but any high fantasy type magic assumes sentience "Arthur will sleep until England's Greatest Threat is upon it." just isn't feasible in SF without a cryogenic system hooked up to a sentient computer.

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